“Show Notes”
This week the guest is Christine Saunders. Christine is an art buyer, producer and business coach for professional photographers. She helps photographers curate their websites to show their best works and ultimately get more work. Sam asks what is Christine helping these photographers with and why are they coming to her? Suzanne says she helps photographers help them see themselves more as CEO of a business. Think about all of the departments the CEO of coca cola might have. Generally photographers are great at the creativity and often get help with the accounting side, but there is much more to business than this. Especially marketing. How to create a business plan a marketing plan where you are consistently reaching out to promote yourself. Christine says a marketing plan is a hugely important part of being seen and getting work. But she also works in all sorts of others areas of the business helping to develop this. So she isn’t an agent she is more like a business partner. Sam asks about target audience and how to decide who your target audience is. Christine says she does a lot of brain storming this with clients starting from the sort of photography they do and the sort of clients they want to work with. Christine doesn’t work with any particular genre of photographer, she more works with photographers filling gaps in their business. Christine says by the nature of being a creative photographers have sensitivities. Christine is asking them to reach out and be more visible, but many don’t feel happy doing that and so she supports them. Marcus asks how the market has changed for photographer since the start of the century. Back then there was no digital photography, no smart phones and no global campaigns. before different areas would run different campaigns from different photographers now it’s more global. Getty has come in which has been good and bad for photographers. Some have thrived from this while others felt it has done a lot of damage. Marcus thinks a third one is the amount of people who are commercial photographers. Christine agrees that the number who are coming into the industry is very large. Sam asks if she helps photographers with pricing. She says that is something she helps with and she has stopped photographers not going in too low and to value themselves. Sometimes this means charging for extra things on top of the standard shoot fee. She says a lot of photographers do go in too low with price, but there is a balance here. She says it is also worth asking the client what budget they have. They won’t always tell you this and it can be challenging, but usually someone has a budget, but they won’t always share it with you.
Marcus brings up licensing, being paid for the use of your images. He says in the US licensing is standard while this isn’t the case except in the very top of the market in the UK. Christine seems less sure about this. She says that in much of the work she does then these recurring fees are collected. She also says if people want usage of the images included then that should be done under restrictions, such as a five year limit. Sam asks how photographers who do hide behind the camera a little could start to come out of their shell. Christine says go to any industry events you can. Photo London has just been on. These are great places to get inspired. You can also often get a portfolio review at these events. Another thing they could do is send some emails to people they already know. Marcus asks what photographers can do to aim for the top of their industry. She says she sees a lot of talent and it feels like she is the only one who sees it. She says step out there. Showing your work to the world even if it imperfect is a lot better than only you and your Mum seeing it. Also remember this is a business. It always needs to be looked at as a business, you need to step into those other roles.
“Show Transcription”
Marcus: Well, hello everybody and welcome to another episode of Shoot to the Top, the show for commercial photographers. Sam, how are you doing?
Sam: Very good, Marcus. Yes, excellent. And yourself?
Marcus: Oh, I’m really very well indeed. And on today’s show, we’ve got a fantastic guest. I know we always say that, but in this case, I really mean it.
Sam: I’m interested to know who you didn’t mean it for, but go on, Marcus. For those that can’t see, Marcus is now bright red and matches the red background in the studio.
Marcus: Okay, so who have we got? We’ve got Christine Saunders. Christine, introduce yourself.
Christine: Well, hello, Sam and Marcus. Thank you for inviting me onto your podcast. I’m Christine Saunders, an art buyer, producer and business coach for professional photographers. I help photographers curate their websites to show the best work and create a system to be more visible to potential clients and ultimately get more work. That’s the gist of who I am.
Marcus: Okay, that’s very succinct there. Now, you’ve cut a load out there, Christine. Let’s start off by giving us the wow factor. Let’s start telling us some of the photographers who you have worked over the last 30 years.
Christine: Well, this is a little bit like award speeches because I’ll be worried about the many that I get. Because it is 30 years worth. Lucky enough, I was thinking about this and it does start with Norman Parkinson.
Marcus: Wow.
Christine: Norman Parkinson and going to, yes, so that was some time ago.
Marcus: He was a great photographer.
Chritine: David Bailey, Terence Donovan, no longer with us.
Marcus: Nadav Kanda. I was going to say Nadav Kanda, the one that really caught my eye.
Christine: Nick Meek, Daniel Joano, quite a famous, or he was a famous still life photographer. Tim Walker. Oh, well, that’s enough.
Marcus: Tim Brett Day. I’m a huge fan.
Sam: So I guess my question then is, what are you helping all these photographers with and why are they coming to you?
Marcus: Good question.
Christine: So I’m helping photographers look at themselves more as the CEO of a business. And I often say, see yourself as the head of a big corporation and all the departments that someone like the CEO of Coca-Cola has. Because photographers are brilliant on the photography bit, but they need to be good on the financial bit. And that’s one bit that generally people will go and get help. They’ll get a bookkeeper or they’ll have an accountant. But then there’s the whole bit of marketing and how to have create a business plan, a marketing plan and create a strategy that gets you consistently sending out emails, reaching out to people and reminding them. You know, I always say it’s like wearing a virtual badge of like, hi, I’m Christine, hire me. And whatever different ways that we do that, that’s what we’ve got to do more of because there are more people after fewer jobs. So we need to be very, very visible.
Sam: That makes sense. So is it that marketing side you’re mainly helping them or you’re helping some of those other sides as well with like the business planning and things?
Christine: Business planning, marketing planning, the marketing planning, I help because I think it’s just something most of us, you know, didn’t I’m sure no one set out to be, you know, to end up creating a marketing plan and thinking that way about their business.
But it’s a hugely important, I think, element to staying relevant and being seen. But I also help on, you know, creating estimates, usages. You know, I do a certain amount of producing. Are you trying to find an agent? Do you want to work in different territories to the one that you’re currently based in? Which, you know, there are various photography platforms, should you enter competitions, which are the good ones?
Sam: Wow, so you’re almost like not quite a business partner, but not far off kind of coming in and doing all sorts of different things in the business and helping people in the right way.
Christine: I hope so. Yes, yes. That’s the aim.
Marcus: And then you mentioned that you weren’t, your role wasn’t as an agent per se.
Christine: No.
Marcus: So maybe you could just clarify that for our listeners who might not see the difference. It’s quite a subtle difference to what you’re doing as to what an agent does, isn’t it?
Christine: True. And I often work with agents because they haven’t always got the time.
So I could, an agent, you know, take somebody on and they will do all that marketing for them and they will go and have, you know, they’ll have personal relationships with certain buyers and creatives. And always, obviously, they’ll be representing that photographer and hoping to get them business. I don’t do any of that part. I’m reviewing where they are and saying, what’s the gap? Are you not shooting enough of this? Do we need something else here? These are the people that we are identifying that would be great for you to work with. Off you go. So I then hands off and either they do that with their agent or they do it on their own.
Marcus: Yes. Okay. We had guests on before who have got agents and having an agent isn’t always the be all and end all.
Christine: No.
Marcus: You can have somebody doing your role and that will be enough to work with a producer directly.
Christine: Yeah. And again, I think that’s down to personalities, as you know. Some of us are just better at being sort of like front of house. Some photographers are just brilliant at it and they should go and see people and make those connections. Others, that’s not their comfort level. So if they have an agent, that’s brilliant because they can stay literally behind the camera. Let somebody else go and do the jolly, the schmoozing, all of that lovely stuff.
And then they enjoy getting the work when it’s there. So, yeah, it depends, I think, a little bit on your personality.
Sam: Okay. So you were talking a little bit about who photographers should be aiming at. So if there’s a photographer sitting there thinking, well, who is my audience? Have you got some kind of hints and tips to help people think about how they could kind of determine their ideal target audience, who they should be kind of aiming for?
Christine: Yeah. I mean, it’s definitely something we brainstorm. If I’m looking at a, like I look at a lot of sort of lifestyle photographers, let’s say, obviously that can lend itself to be, we can write down as a potential ideal client, anything from McDonald’s and Starbucks to all the banks, insurance groups, people like Bupa and beyond. I’m going to blank on all the different ways. But there are so many ways that lifestyle is used. So we literally, we think about where the work would be right. What are some crossovers and who are the sort of clients that they would like to work for? Sometimes people just out of a, they just have a strong feeling that no, that’s not an area that they’d want to go in, which is absolutely fine. And then I always say, and I say to everyone, have a potential, your ideal client list should be a Google document that’s never-ending. See an ad today, add another client. And then we’ve got something to work with before we start the marketing.
Sam: Right. Yeah. So you can then start to target that marketing at someone in particular.
Christine: Yeah.
Sam: Excellent.
Marcus: A lot of the, oh, sorry, Sam. We’re going to do this all top top, aren’t we? A lot of the photographers you’ve mentioned are, well, a few of them, certainly the ones that are portfaits or fashion photographers, Tim Walker, Natalie Carter to a degree. Do you work with any particular genre of photography in particular, Christine?
Christine: No. I mean, I could have mentioned Ben Stockley, Paul Zak, a gazillion still life as food photographers. It’s everyone.
Sam: And in some ways, is what you do with them quite, does it not matter that much on the genre? Is it more about where the gaps are in their business and you help them to fill that? And that’s actually to do with their skills and what they like doing.
Christine: Precisely. The involvement sometimes is, if we think when we’re thinking about maybe new test shots, I might help in a direction of what we’ve identified as being a little bit of a gap or something that’s worth strengthening in the website portfolio. But other than that, no, what I do goes across any genre.
Sam: OK, cool. And then do you find generally with most photograph photographers, there’s a few things that they are, there’s some like specific areas which most photographers really need help with. Do you?
Christine: Yes. Well, it is. It’s it’s been. I think by the nature of being a creative, you I know these are generalisations of generalisations, but they have sensitivity. So to go, I’m telling them, right, I want you to write these emails. I want you to go and see these people.
I want you to be fearless and do a role that you’re that is really out of your comfort zone because you need to be more visible. And I think so a lot of them come to me going, I know this is what I should be doing, but I need somebody to hold my hand and kind of make me accountable and do it, because otherwise I’m running away from it. I don’t want to do it.
So that’s that’s really common one. And I think also having another pair of eyes on your website, because again, it’s you you have all these conversations with yourself. Is that the best shot to start with? Should I move that one there? And you have another pair of eyes that that you don’t have to ultimately agree with. But I think photographers enjoy the process of having somebody to collaborate on that with.
Marcus: 100 percent. I mean, in the olden days, it would be your book publisher. It would be picture editor if it’s in a magazine. There’s always been an involvement, you know.
Christine: Yeah. There’s just less. There’s just a little bit less of that, though, now, sadly, isn’t there, Marcus?
Sam: Yeah. It’s more people are more having to do it themselves.
Marcus: Well, it’s OK. That’s going to lead me on to a question. And it’s a big question, of course. I think there’s been a lot of market change for photographers since, you know, let’s say pre not pre the Internet to the Internet, which is like pre 2000.
Sam: In fact, back hundreds of years ago. Right.
Christine: OK. You mean compared to when I started in 1806?
Sam: Well, I think that’s what Marcus is saying. So first of all, we had glass plates.
Marcus: Yeah. Oh, is it? Was it Bass Marcus week or something? Well, yeah. Yeah, I know. It’s a big question. Go on, have a stab at it.
Christine: Yeah, it’s kind of too big. But, you know, we didn’t have digital. We didn’t have mobile phones with some clients saying, I can do all this myself. We didn’t have global campaigns, which is both good and bad. You know, when I when I worked on L’Oreal in 1806, we would do a campaign for the UK. Somebody else would do one for Asia. Somebody else would be doing one for the States. And even though sometimes there are cultural differences, obviously, we know that generally speaking, a global campaign. So one lucky photographer gets that usage, which is fantastic if you’re the one chosen for the job. But there’s now less work for other photographers because one person got that global campaign. That’s a change. Getty came in. That’s changed. Good and bad again. Some photographers thrived and others felt, you know, there was there was there was damage done because a lot of times in an ad agency, somebody would come to me and say, we need this shoot by tomorrow. Can you go to Getty? And actually, all art buyers I know, if we can in the time, we do always say, no, we’re going to find somebody that will do this overnight because we still want to give it to a photographer. Not if it was the Himalayas with, you know, Santa Claus coming, that might be tricky. But there are a lot of times that actually we could still solve it and find a lovely photographer that kind of got real work out of it. So that’s changed.
Marcus: Yeah, I mean, those, you know.
Christine: I don’t know.
Marcus: I’ll throw it back. Well, I think the third one I might add to it is probably it’s become a lot more people are now taking photographs commercially.
Christine: For sure. Yes, actually. Yes. Good point. And you only have to look at all the schools in, well, in the UK, certainly in the States, just doing a tiny bit from living over there. All of these photographers coming out, as well as self-taught ones. Yeah. Yeah. The number of It’s incredible, really.
Marcus: I mean, yeah, I mean, I’m an academic, I’m a lecturer, people know the distance, so know I was going about it. And I mean, in my locality in Bristol, there’s three universities that have got photography courses, three in Bristol. So you’ve got that.That’s always been a constant. But since the pandemic, I think there’s a lot of people, we get them on the show, who have come into it in the last four or five years.
Christine: Yeah.
Marcus: Not saying that’s a bad thing. I mean, it’s great that more people are there to enjoy and reap the benefits from photography. But it certainly is very different to back in the 90s or whatever, when you go down the pub and you literally can meet somebody and get a job just by being in the pub, you know, literally in Fleet Street or wherever you go down there or whatever.
Christine: Yeah.Yeah.
Marcus: Okay. That’s a good answer.
Sam: And then I think, Christine, do you help photographers with pricing as well? Because I think that’s one area a lot of businesses and photographers struggle with, isn’t it? Well, how do you get that price point right, get the value right for you, for your client, get the right message across with it?
Christine: Yeah. Yes, that’s definitely something I help with. And I am pleased to say I quite often have, well, I know I have managed to, a photographer will sometimes go in too low.
And I will help them, one, I think have more value in themselves. And if we can’t do much with the fee, there could be some other areas that is totally justified that they should and could be charging for, you know, sometimes even when they have their own studio, they don’t always put that in as a cost. So sometimes there are simple ways that the clients can see like, yeah, these are things I should pay for, and then I can get the price up.
Sam: Okay. Excellent. And is that usually what needs doing? Is usually people charging too little, you think?
Christine: Yes, I think because the market’s got so hard that a lot of photographers would, well, obviously, people would rather work than not. So they feel if they go in low, they’re more likely to get the job. And I know it’s a fine line. I don’t say, oh, yeah, no, let’s triple it.
And then once you don’t work at all, that would be silly. But I do believe I really believe it’s worth trying to ask your client back. Could you tell me the budget? They never want to but just sometimes they’ll go, oh, yeah, sure. We’ve got X. And then you go, right, now I know how to do minus.
Sam: Now you know how to work.
Marcus: It would be so much easier if clients were open with their budgets. They’ve got a figure in mind. They know what they’re going to spend. And then it can really open up.
Oh, okay, that’s a bit more than I thought. I can be a bit more creative on this shoot. Or a bit less creative.
It’s less money. You can adapt to it.
Sam: Yeah, I guess. I guess it depends. We all have to do a dance. Yeah, I guess it depends if they’ve used a photography before. I know from personal experience, you’re going to a garage or you’re going to a hairdresser. I go to a hairdresser all the time. I know roughly how much a haircut is going to cost. And you know, if you’re using photography, it’s going to be the same. But if it’s kind of your first time using photographer, then probably you do. You are going, I have no clue. You know, they do need some sort of ballpark guidance.
Marcus: Maybe.
Christine: But I think someone’s always got a budget. I mean, even if that person that’s chatting to the photographer is new, the person that asked them to organize the shoot. Someone’s got the purse that will say, right, we’ve got 10 grand all in and we want to spend around two on photography. And then, you know, there’s an idea. But yeah.
Marcus: Exactly. And another thing you’ve obviously that you talked about that I mentioned is usage or licensing, which is really so confusing. You worked in America where it’s the norm. I mean, you get licensing at every level, at the top and at the bottom. In the UK, for some strange reason, we only get licensing for the people at the very top of their game. All the rest do not charge licensing. There’s no idea.
Christine: So. I mean, there’s a usage always, isn’t there, when you’re commissioned? And do you feel it’s gone that extreme that there’s very little usage on top?
Marcus: At the sort of mid to lower levels, I think, you know, when you discuss a budget and you give a price and that is it. And that is like, without going into the copyright, that is what the client is going to be paid. Whereas more in America, the system is that you’ll get, where is it being used? Where is the image being used? Is it in an editorial? Is it going to be on a web? And the pricing will adjust accordingly over a time period.
Sam: It’s almost like you get recurring income from it. They use it more.
Christine: Yeah. And it’s brilliant. I saw a photographer who I wouldn’t name, but he’s just, you know, he’s just got a recurring one. It’s like in the music industry, isn’t it, Mark? It’s like when you get, what’s it called? Is it a residual. And, you know, you’ve gone to bed, you wake up and it’s like, ka-ching. That’s absolutely.
Marcus: Well, it used to be like that.
Christine: It used to be like that before Spotify came along, of course. But I, well, a lot of the work I do, usage is still, it is still a part of it. Some brands have just gone, no, if you want the job, you just give us an all-in price. But I often say when, if a client asks for that, don’t give them all the rights away. You could still say, what if I give you 10 years, or I don’t actually never suggest that far, but let’s say five years, and I’ll include all the usage that you’re saying that you want, but I’m still going to give it to us as a license, because one, it just sort of teaches the client, you should never give away everything. And what if that campaign is so successful, maybe in five years, because it’s done well, then they’d be very happy to pay you some more money. So I always say, try that. They can still say no, but sometimes they’ll just go, yeah, you’re right, we don’t actually need all usage in perpetuity, I can’t say that word. In perpetuity. I can’t say it, and then they’ll agree to something not quite as extreme, which protects the photographer a little bit.
Marcus: Yeah, I think the bottom line is, Christine, is if a photographer does get a job, they should be speaking to people like yourself, so you can maximise the budgets.
Christine: Thank you, Marcus.
Sam: Earlier, Christine, you were kind of saying a lot of photographers like, I think what you’re saying is they like hiding behind the camera, and not coming out in public, and not.
So have you got kind of, there’s lots of photographers clearly like that, have you got little things that photographers like that could do to kind of help them come out of their shell a bit, be seen a little bit more? Just maybe those first steps that kind of are a little bit scary, but not too much where they could, you know, dip their water into this sort of thing.
Christine: Well, I’m not sure whether I’ve got first steps, but I definitely always say, go to any industry events that you can. You know, Photo London was just on, that’s not one where you’re interacting. But I think even that, there’s a couple of photographers I recommended going, because they’re having a tough time. So I’m still suggesting they spend some money. But I think you go and get inspired. And there are people that you just think like, God, this is why I’m doing this. But if you go to an industry event, and they have got portfolio reviews, it’s making that first step. And then you see other photographers, and you’re all in the same boat, and you’re all feeling a little bit nervous. And realise like, gosh, what was I so worried about? And you’ve made a step. Or I’ll get them to just send a certain number, a small number of emails to people they already know. And they quite often get a nice reply. And it’s like, oh, that wasn’t so bad. So I don’t know if that helps, kind of those little steps.
Sam: Yeah, no, that’s really good. It’s always good to get those, you know, first little steps out from hiding behind that camera.
Christine: Yeah.
Sam: Cool. And we’re about, we’re about running out of time. I think, Marcus, coming towards the end.
Marcus: Gosh, oh, that went super quick. Maybe, yeah, maybe just a few little, okay. Obviously, the tools you work at are a higher level. It’s a different game to maybe to some of our listeners. But how, what can our listeners do? And you’ve already talked about that, Sam. But what can they do to aim for the top? What is the big thing that they need to have? Is it personality? Is it portfolio? Is it connections? Is it networking? What would you say is the most important thing, Christine?
Christine: Well, if I put it this way, that I see a lot of brilliant, wonderful talent. And it feels like I’m the only one seeing it because they haven’t dared. They don’t feel they’re ready yet to show it to the world. And I’m saying imperfect better than just you and me and your mum. Knowing how wonderful you are. We’ve just, just have the courage to just put, you know, step out there. Because you’ve got beautiful talents, but now we need the world to see it. It’s kind of what I would say.
Marcus: I think that’s it. Just get out there and get on with it, really. I mean, taking that music analogy, I see a lot of YouTube videos out there of amazing musicians who aren’t playing in bands or producing records. You’ve got to get out there and do it, really. One foot in front of the other.
Christine: And I do think this thing is, sorry, just remembering that it is a business. So if you are kind of young and you’re starting out and you’ve got into this because you love the camera and your art. If you really want to be professional and make some money out of this, then we have to look at it as a business and you need to step into those other roles.
Sam: Yeah, yeah. Perfect. Yeah, yeah. That’s always very important. And easily forgotten when you just think, I could just spend another hour on Photoshop instead of doing my accounts.
Christine: Precisely.
Sam: That’s a look of recognition on Marcus’s face there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That’s very true.
Marcus: Oh, wow. That’s been enlightening. And they’ve asked quite a lot of questions I was going to ask. But I think we’ve got to the end of the show very, very quickly. But maybe we can get you back in again, Christine, and talk a bit more about photography at a later date with you, if that’s OK.
Christine: I would love to. Absolutely love to.
Sam: Amazing. Cool. Well, thank you so much, Christine. Been lovely having you with us.
Listeners, if… Let me start again. Listeners, we have a mailing list. And if you’re not on it, you really need to be. Once you are signed up, the podcast has been really well today. The podcast will get delivered to your inbox every single week. That will make sure you don’t miss it, which is obviously really important. There’s also extra bits and pieces from me and Marcus. Chance to be a guest. And we do Blast from the Past and highlight some previous shows and stuff like that. So you just need to go to our website, shoottothetop.com, sign up and you can be on the mailing list. And you can also apply to be a guest on the show while you’re on the website, if that is something you think would be interesting. And all our listeners could benefit from your knowledge and experience. Christine, it has been lovely talking to you. We should have had a much longer show, but that is… Our time is up. Thank you.
Christine: It really has been a pleasure. And I’ll be happy to come back. Yeah, lovely meeting you both.
Sam: Thanks so much. And Marcus, I will see you next week.
Marcus: Yeah, see you next week, Sam.
Have a good one. Take care, Christine.
Christine: Okay, bye-bye for now.