Guest Interview with Zoe Hiljemark

May 11, 2024 | Marketing Guest

“Show Notes”

Zoe Hiljemark is a PR and marketing consultant who works just with
photographers. She has spent twenty years in PR, ten of those working with
photographers. She leverages PR content and SEO to promote photographers.
Back when Zoe became a mother she wanted baby photographs. So she got a
photoshoot with Karen Wiltshire. Zoe got on well with Karen and the ideas went
from there. Zoe realised Karen’s work was amazing but could reach many more
people. So Zoe started working with Karen and then moved on to working with
other photographers. The business grew from there and Zoe ended up just,
working with photographers. Zoe now works with all sorts of different
photographers which she enjoys. She has a niche now and recommends niches
for other businesses.

Sam asks if Zoe is getting photographers photographs in the press, or them and
their services in the press. Zoe says it’s largely about getting them and their
business into the press. Marcus wonders if particular magazines are good for
particular niches. Zoe says that it depends on the client and their niche. But it’s
largely not about photography magazines, but magazines read by th
client. Sharing photos to be used in the press is also a great way to get your

images seen.
‘Sam and Zoe discuss how important it is to know your target audience. Without
this it is hard to know where to put your PR efforts. It takes a lot of time and effort
to get into the press, so ensure when you get this you use it. Keep sharing it on
social media, feature it on your website and keep talking about it.

‘Marcus asks if this is about making the photographer the star. Some
photographers are not very keen on this and like to hide behind the camera. But
PR is about being visible. Zoe thinks that PR is under-used by photographers, but
to use it you have to share something about yourself.

Zoe talks about how photographers could improve their websites sharing
information about a photoshoot and the story behind it, not just share the images.

All of the work the photographer has put into this photoshoot needs to be shared.

‘Marcus asks about the challenges working with photographers on PR. Zoe says
first of all they need to be in the right mindset. Also they can respond quickly to
opportunities. The press may need images or a story very quickly so if a
photographer is not keeping an eye on messages then they might miss the
opportunity. Having a press pack ready is really useful. That means a pre-written
bio and some headshots and other images. It’s essential that photographers have
good headshots and lifestyle images of themselves. These can be done
reciprocally with other photographers.

Zoe says PR is not spin, just being seen in the right light.

‘Sam brings back the topic of niches and the worry people have when niching as
people feel that they are cutting off a major group of clients. But if you don’t niche
you can easily confuse clients with your messaging. When you have a niche,
marketing becomes easier as you know who you are speaking to. This makes it
easier to create content and posts that engage with your audience.

“Show Transcription”

Sam: Hello Marcus, how are you doing this week?

Marcus: I’m very well Sam, very well indeed, and yourself?

Sam: Yes, very good, very good, and we’ve got a brilliant guest today with us Marcus. So today we have got with us Zoe Hilgemark who is a PR and marketing expert who works specifically with photographers. So welcome to the show Zoe.

Zoe: Thank you very much Sam, thanks Marcus as well.

Marcus: My pleasure.

Sam: Brilliant, so do you want to introduce yourself Zoe?

Zoe: Yes, thank you. Well as you’ve said I’m a PR and marketing consultant and I’m working exclusively with photographers. I have done that for the last 10 years now. I’ve actually worked in PR for 20 years in total. I’m not a photographer but I find myself in the photography space because I have found an opportunity to help independent photographers better promote their businesses. And what I leverage is basically the power of PR, so media publicity, content in the form of blogging and also SEO. So those are my three kind of expertise areas, like how I actually help photographers get more visible and attract more clients.

Sam: Amazing, excellent. We’d better not talk about SEO too much because we’ve just had a whole series on that. Marcus might strangle me, strangle me if you say those three words too many, too many more times.

Marcus:  Thank you for saying that.

Sam:  But he might, he might let us sneak a little bit in if we’re lucky, but I guess he will tell us all about it. So what was it that made you make that steer towards the photography market?

Zoe: I think it was, I believe in fate to be honest. It found me. I had my first son nearly 12 years ago now and of course I wanted some beautiful photos of him to capture that amazing newborn stage. And back then newborn photography wasn’t as big a thing as it is now, but it was, it was available. So of course I didn’t actually plan it at this point. It was just a kind of, wow, I’ve got this baby in my arms, I need some gorgeous photos. Quickly got on Google, found someone locally who happened to be Karen Wiltshire. She lives down here in Poole in Dorset as do I. And I absolutely loved her work. I fell in love with it. So consequently we had the shoot, got on so well with her, adored the work obviously. And it really went from there because what I noticed was that Karen’s work was so fantastic, really top end stuff. But at the same time I felt like she could be reaching so many more people. So even though I was supposed to be on maternity leave and not really thinking about work, my brain was kind of like, Karen, can we have a chat at some point? And basically I just gave her some ideas, a proposal essentially of what I felt I could do for her. And then it kind of rolled from there. So she was really kind to then suggest me to other photographers once we started working together and achieving results.

So she was featured in national media, local media as well, but national and even some international media as a result of working with me. And yes, like I say, she very kindly endorsed my services therefore to the point where actually I found that as I was working part time at this point because I was still a new mum, but working with photographers. And I thought, you know what? I’m not working with anyone else at this point. It made sense to niche down because I was absolutely adoring the work that I was doing for, at the time there were largely family and newborn photographers. And as a new mum myself, as a parent, it was a niche that fit me perfectly in my lifestyle. And so, yes, I feel like fate found me really. But from there I have diversified from just newborn and family photographers to all genres of photography in a way because I’ve worked with commercial photographers. I work with a wildlife photographer at the moment. I’ve worked with pet and equine photographers. So, you know, and weddings and everything really. So, and I love that variety, to be honest, but still within the niche of photography. And yes, what I teach and what I, you know, consult on applies across the board.

So, but I just love having that niche. And, you know, if anyone has a niche, they’ll understand that that does help you get found, be seen as an expert as well in your space. And you can obviously talk about that niche and your expertise in that area. So, I’m fully endorsing the idea of a niche because for me and my personal experience, that’s been really great for my own business. And so many photographers, when they have been either referred or when they’ve found me online, they’ve said, oh, I love the fact that you just work with photographers because there’s instantly that assumption on their part, I guess, and I hope to obviously back that up. You know, the assumption that I know the industry and indeed I do, I feel like I do. So, you know, you’ve got that expertise straight off. And that for me is much more preferable than working with lots of different industries. And back in my marketing and PR agency days, one day we could be working on a Sunseeker was a brand we worked on, you know, a luxury lifestyle, very much high end brand. And the next we could be having a client come in and say they’ve got this widget that they need to promote and, you know, sell millions of. And it was it was so sort of different. And whilst that was exciting, I do love, you know, I do love variety.

And like I say, I do get that in my work. But I just love the fact now that it’s within photography specifically.

Sam:  Yeah. And then you were saying you got the photographers into the press nationally and internationally. So I’m wondering, are you talking about their work in the press or in terms of their photographs or them as a kind of person and a brand into the press? Or is it a kind of a bit of a mix?

Zoe: Yeah, that’s a really good question, actually. So when I work with photographers, it’s with the objective of promoting them and their services. So it is about getting them featured, them being interviewed, them being on podcasts and hopefully their work featured in magazines. So, yes, it isn’t just a case of trying to provide photography to support random articles. It is purely to promote their own businesses.

Marcus:  Yeah, I mean, that’s interesting. Obviously, we’ve had guests in the past who are PR agents and they use photographers. You’re taking it to a different level. You’re taking photographers and doing PR for them. So what kind of magazines would you be approaching, for example? I mean, I’m sure it depends on the genre, but is there anything you think, oh, that’s a great spot for great art magazine for a photographer?

Zoe: Yeah, I mean, that’s a really open question in a way, because as you’ve said, then, because it completely depends on the client. So, for example, I’ve just landed my wildlife photographer guy, a double page spread, huge image in Travel Africa magazine. But he’s promoting African safaris that he hosts. And then he takes aspiring photographers and professional photographers with him on safari and he teaches them how to capture great shots. And he actually just won a Wildlife Photographer of the Year award. So that was off the back of that. So it’s a bit like, you know, it very much depends on the story. But obviously, yes, the client and the niche and who they’re trying to reach. So for him, Travel Africa magazine was perfect because it reaches the people who buy the magazine that, you know, about dreaming, who are dreaming and planning a trip to Africa. And of course, he wants to reach those people. So the very first sort of part of working with anyone is actually determining what their message is, you know, what the who their ideal client is and therefore what media would be relevant. So it very much depends. But yeah, there’s lots of opportunities out there. And I think the beauty is for photographers is that you have images. Obviously, you have these beautiful assets that you can be sharing with the media. If you’re prepared to share those in exchange for a photo credit, you know, not charged because you don’t get paid for the use of images in this kind of way, in this press use. If you are prepared to do that, then there is potentially a lot of scope for you to get your work featured. But it is all about, as with all aspects of marketing in a way, getting to the right audience and being seen in the right place. So I’m not about particularly taking a scattergun approach to media, but it’s more about being focused on, you know, specific publications.

Sam: That makes sense. And that’s interesting. It’s because I think what’s really important, it’s not a photography magazine, is it? It’s not something aimed at photographers, unless you’re a photographer trainer, it’s aimed at that target audience. And I think from talking to a few photographers we’ve talked to, Marcus, I think the ones who really know what they’re doing, know their target audience, but not all of them do. And I think that’s really important, isn’t it? That they think who is their ideal client, who is their target audience, and who are they really speaking to?

Zoe: Yeah, that’s fundamental, isn’t it? I mean, you’ll know that, Sam, from the work you do as well with photographers. It’s so, so key to all aspects of marketing. And a thing that unfortunately too many people skip over, but yes, once you know your audience, then you can actually make a strategic plan, if you like, for which media titles would be most relevant. I mean, I have pitched successfully to photography magazines as well, to the trade. As you said there, Sam, it’s completely down to what you’re trying to achieve from it, because if you’re actually selling mentoring services and, you know, doing workshops, then obviously you’re trying to reach other photographers. And in which case, those photography magazines are an obvious place to be featured. And indeed, Karen and other clients have been featured in those magazines for that purpose. It can also, even if you’re not selling workshops or doing any training, it can also just be a credibility piece. I mean, that is obviously what PR and media publicity is all about, really. It’s being able to say, you know, as featured in, and you could list the publications that you’ve been featured in and have those links to any articles on your website. And that’s something I highly recommend photographers do, because if you’re doing the hard work, and by the way, this isn’t easy to land features and press mentions, it can be like a really quick win, just like anything, you know, there can be some really quick wins, but mostly it is, you know, it takes a lot of effort, takes a lot of time and focus and, you know, toning your story and reaching out in a way that is successful. Once you put in that time and, you know, you want to really show off the press coverage, and indeed any interviews on podcasts such as this, for example, any kind of third-party endorsement is so , so valuable from a brand and credibility perspective. So I always urge any photographers who’ve ever had any kind of third-party features to, you know, make sure they’re sharing those on, keep sharing them on social media as well, because I think people can be guilty of sharing something which is really great at the time, and then forget to kind of reshare. So yeah, if you’ve ever been a feature in the press, if anyone’s listening and, you know, do dig that out again, keep sharing it, keep talking about it, and make sure that it’s, you know, visible on the website.

Sam: Yeah, and podcast, if you’ve ever been on shoot to the top, then keep promoting your episode.

Zoe:  Absolutely, absolutely, because you never know who’s, you know, listening and watching and, you know, you find new audiences all the time.

Marcus: So in effect, as a photographer, we’re used to being behind the camera and not, and photographing other people, or certainly not being seen. So you’re sort of swapping it around, you’re turning it around there, and you’re making the photographer the star here.

Zoe: Trying to, yes.

Sam:  I think you’re a little bit reluctant.

Zoe: Some are, because of course, you know, as you’ve said there, Marcus, it’s, you know, you’re behind the camera normally, to the point where some people are so, you know, shy about putting their face out there that, you know, they, even on their About page, their image of them is hidden behind a camera, and you still can’t actually see their full face. I think, you know, you’re naturally going to have introverts who, you know, perhaps feel like they don’t want to, you know, do that, and that’s absolutely fine. I’m not saying everyone has to do this, but I do think if you are going to put yourself forward to the media, you do need to be prepared to share, you know, what you look like, share headshots, share images of, you know, you at work, potentially. Depends what the angle of the feature of the story actually is, but yes, you need to have a level of comfort around being visible yourself, so this won’t necessarily appeal to everyone, and indeed it is sort of like a cherry on the cake in a way, because I believe that everybody needs to have a great website, you know, you need to be working on your SEO. In an ideal world, you’ll be working on blogging and content creation, because I’ve wholly endorsed the whole content marketing approach. You need to have a presence on social media, and then, you know, it goes on and on, doesn’t it? There’s always just so much more that you can be doing, so I feel like PR is something that’s very much underused by photographers as a whole, as a strategy, and therefore people, when they do discover me and find out what I help with, I have found that people are like, oh wow, this is really interesting and not something I’d ever thought, you know, that I could do or that is right for me, and I would say to that, well, absolutely, why wouldn’t it be? But you’ve got to be prepared to, yes, share something of yourself and your story and, you know, how you’re different and what makes you interesting, because, of course, the journalists and the media want that reassurance and, you know, that you’re going to be able to follow through confidently, provide information that will interest their audience, their readers, their listeners, so yes, you need to be in the right mindset for PR, but yeah, I do like to think that, you know, it’s something slightly unique and different.

Marcus: I’ve just been watching last night a new National Geographic series called Photographers, about obviously their photographers, and the one last night was about Dan Winters, who’s a famous, famous portrait photographer, and yeah, I mean, these are, they make great documentaries, but I’ve seen it done, the style done before, there’s lots of stories to be told, really, and I think, you know, we forget that in photography, that, you know, there is a, it’s not just about making pictures, there’s some very profound ideas behind it as well.

Zoe:  Oh, completely, and I think, I’ve actually was advising a client early this week on how to sort of embellish the information on their website, and rather than it just be a gallery of images from a particular commission, which is what they had, I was really encouraging them to think, gosh, there’s so many stories and really interesting information that you could share, you know, how did this commission come about, why did they choose you, what happened on the shoot, what was the challenges that you faced on the day, you know, weather, lighting, whatever, there’s so much you can actually tell a client, and that really, and that’s without talking about the concepts and the vision that they had creatively, there’s so much that you can share, and that’s why blogs are fantastic for, you know, providing the platform to do that, as well as obviously engaging copy on your actual website, and yes, your commissions or portfolio page.

Yes, you as photographers all have so many interesting stories to share, and it’s easy to sort of dismiss that and think, oh, no one’s interested in me, or what do I say, or I’m not, you know, I’ve not been doing it for, you know, more than two years, I’m not an expert, or oh, it’s already been said before, what can I add to the, you know, to the subject, so there’s all these limiting beliefs, really, that definitely, I think, you need to try and kind of ignore.

Sam: Do you think there’s also a belief that some photographers think the photograph tells the story, so they will put a dump of a load of wedding photos, and think that tells the story, but to me, that doesn’t tell how many weeks of preparation they put into it, and how much they’ve, you know, they’ve worked afterwards, and what a great relation, none of that’s told, but they just, like, it’s so common, isn’t it, just like, boom, there’s 100 photos.

Zoe: Yes, I think, I think you’re so right, and I think they cut, they do themselves an injustice, really, by not revealing the full, full story, and the context.

Sam: There’s so much more.

Zoe: Yeah, there is so much more, and I, as you, as you say there, it’s like, they’ve put in so much work creatively to kind of plan these photos, and they may feel, and hopefully the client feels that, you know, they convey exactly the sentiment, the emotion, you know, captures the moment, that they want to, but gosh, words are really helpful to help other people understand that, and it’s the same with social media captions, because it’s, photographers, to be honest, are so guilty, and I’m talking more generally, not everyone, obviously, but, you know, dumping a photo, and saying, oh, cute, or something, but not actually doing anything more than that, and really, that, that’s a missed opportunity in my mind.

Marcus:  So, I guess what we’re doing, what you’re doing here, Zoe, is you’re building the brand of the photographer, and of course, you know, that’s just, it’s a whole new concept that will, everybody’s getting tied into, the idea of a personal brand. What kind of challenges do you find, working with photographers, as regards to building their brand?

Zoe:  Good question, I think, as we’ve touched on already, like, mindset, like, are they in the right place, but generally, if someone works with me, they’re in the right place, mindset-wise, and they know they want to go for this. I think, challenges, I think we need to have, as, sort of, consultants in the capacity that I’m offering, you know, you need to have people available, they need to come back quickly with information. I think the challenges of working with the media, is that, if a journalist comes back, and say it’s a newspaper, you know, they want an immediate response, you have to be quick, and so, if you’re not on top of your emails, or you’re not available on the phone, when something is urgently required, then that’s going to be a problem, and I have missed so many opportunities, because the clients just haven’t been able to get back to me, for whatever reason, within a very tight deadline, and of course, you know, you have to just write those off, because not all of them are short deadline opportunities, so, you know, but if they are, it’s really frustrating, when you miss out on those, because the pitching that went in, you know, into the process of securing that, in the first place, it’s like, oh, shame, you know, it didn’t work out, so, I suppose it’s kind of like, prioritizing the PR outreach, and the marketing, and therefore, putting the journalist’s needs first, in the sense that, if you have secured an opportunity, or you have pitched, that, you know, you do then follow through with, you know, quick information, but I believe that, you know, you can help yourself in that regard, by being prepared, so, if you have a folder, say, on Dropbox, you know, ready, with press-friendly images, all the, like, low resolution, high resolution, really good gallery of images, that’s available, a bio about yourself, perhaps even, sort of, a short version, you know, micro short version, and then, like, a longer version, so that they’re all ready, and on hand, and what we call, we call that a press pack, basically, so again, when I work with a client, I will get these pieces in place, so that you can actually ensure that, should something come up at the last minute, you’re not scrabbling around, writing a bio, which will never be as good as one that you’ve had time to plan, and also, same with headshots, and things, you know, I’ve been asked for images, like I say, of the actual photographers, to support the feature, or the write-up, and so many photographers, maybe, have still got, you know, like a snap, that they’ve taken on their mobile, rather than a professionally shot image, that they’ve either taken themselves, or that they’ve had another photographer take of them, so it’s really important to get all of these pieces in place, so I think the challenges of working, yeah, it would be more like making sure they’re ready, because this can be quick paced, and you know, we need quick reactions, that’s probably one of the major ones.

Sam: It’s come up a few times, hasn’t it, Marcus, this photographer’s having shots of themselves, and you know, a photographer being out there on social media, saying, you know, you’ve got to have your professional shots, you’ve got to look professional, and they’ve got a selfie, I mean, presumably, Marcus, as well, you could do it reciprocally, and for free, you know, find you a mate who’s a photographer, let’s do headshots of each other, okay, a bit of time.

Zoe: And they do that, don’t they, yeah, and it works well.

Marcus:  yeah, I mean, it’s not everyone, it’s not difficult, I think, these days, the market has become so saturated, it’s such a competitive market, in the photography, in all genres of photography, you’ve really got to stand out there, and you’ve got to get your shit together, to put it, you know, to put it frankly.

Sam: I thought you said I wasn’t gonna have to do any beeps in this episode, Marcus.

Marcus: Yeah, so basically, you’re saying, be expedient, be prepared, and you know, and show your best work.

Zoe:  Definitely, I mean, this is all about putting your best foot forward, isn’t it, it’s all about brand building, it’s all about, you know, it’s not, you know, PR is associated with spin, but I hate that, it’s not about spin, it’s just presenting yourself in the most positive light, and also being seen, I mean, there’s a quote from Oscar Wilde that I quote a lot, and I love the fact that this really emphasizes the point, there’s only one thing in life worse than being talked about, and that’s not being talked about, yeah, you’ve had it before, you know, it’s one of the, it’s really about being visible, being seen, and being known, because you have to be seen, of course, and known to be trusted, and that, then you do use the content and your marketing to build that trust, build that rapport and engagement with prospective clients, and then hopefully you’re top of mind, but that’s why all of the work I do, I feel is so, so important for photographers, and the days where you can just sit back and rest on, you know, referrals and sort of leads coming to you, I think are long gone, and indeed, social media doesn’t deliver the leads anymore that perhaps it used to in the past, so I think people now need to get smarter with their marketing mix, and make sure they are doing, not just what I, the strategies that I implement for clients, but, you know, the in-person networking, you know, getting visible in the communities that impact, are relevant, and would impact your business positively.

Sam: Yeah, I think it’d be nice to go back to something we kind of started on ages ago, back in the chat, which was a niche, because it’s a topic that comes up again and again with photography, I mean, with all businesses, it’s always something that’s just there, isn’t it? But I think with photographers, it’s, there’s some almost very clear niches, aren’t there, which of these kind of five or six are you going into, are you doing weddings and whatever, and it’s always, for any business photographer, anyone else, it’s always scary, isn’t it, that, but there’s always that, but what am I going to lose? All those clients I’m going to, because I’m only going for a fifth of the clients, I’m going to lose all of those, is always the worry, isn’t it, that in people’s minds.

Zoe:  Yes, and I mean, even in, I experienced that, I think we all do, when we all decide to niche, prior to that, we feel, we feel anxiety around it, gosh, I’m cutting off, you know, half of my potential business here, but actually, in my case, I found the opposite to be true, I found it easier to find clients because of the fact that I am a specialist, and I just referred to that slightly earlier, but I did need major encouragement from a business coach of my own at the time, you know, I needed to be almost pushed to make that leap, because it’s so easy to sort of just think, oh, no, I’ll keep saying that I’m doing everything, just to cover all my bases, but I think what you at risk doing there is just, you know, confusing clients, you know, are you a specialist in boudoir photography, or, you know, do you photograph, you know, babies, it’s like, you know, not saying you can’t do both, but it’s mixed messaging, and I think if you do have such differing kind of niches, fair enough, that’s absolutely fine, but you do need to think carefully about how you market those, because clearly those have different audiences, and so you need to be pushing out different messaging, and be in the right places.

Sam: So it’s back to that target audience.

Marcus: Sam, I was just gonna come in there with a caveat, because I do like, you know, look at a different viewpoint a bit, because yeah, I mean, I believe these things, but we had a guest on recently, Joe Giacometti, who is, I don’t know if you know, really one of the top advertising photographers in the country, and his style is so strong that he can afford to work in food, portraiture, and different genres, because you can look at any of his photographs, and you can immediately tell it was taken by him.

Zoe: Wow. Well, that’s impressive.

Sam: Yeah. I guess a strong personal brand there, isn’t it? Yeah, but a very strong personal brand, isn’t he?

Marcus:  Yeah, very strong personal, very, very strong branding. So it’s not always the way, I just like to, I was butting in there, but I just wanted to point that out.

Zoe: Completely, and by no means saying everyone should niche, and this is what you should do, much like I don’t, you know, think that PR is for everyone, you know, it’s very much down to the individual, and indeed photographers are successful, whether they niche or not niche, potentially. I’m sure there are lots of examples, you know, on both sides of the camp, but yes, I can only speak from my own experience with my own business, that’s definitely something that I’ve found to be an advantage, and when I’ve worked with photographers, and they have taken a similar move towards niching, then, you know, they find it easier, and I feel that that’s because marketing therefore is easier, because you know clearly who you’re talking to, whereas if you’re trying to be all things to all people, I feel that’s the recipe for disaster.

Sam: Now I was just going to say the same, yeah, you know, it’s if you’re speaking to somebody specific, those specific people will listen, if I’m speaking to people, an immediate red flag is, I’ll say, who are you, who’s your target, or just go anybody, that’s an immediate red flag, because they kind of, they talk to everybody, which means that nobody is listening, while if you’re talking to a really small group of people, they’re listening, because it’s interesting, and then I think the other thing important to get across with niching, is that the sort of secret of niching is, it doesn’t matter if you take on business that’s not in your niche, you just don’t shout about it, so if you shout that constantly, you’re a baby photographer, and all of your stuff on social media is on your website, it doesn’t matter if you do a wedding, just don’t shout about it on those channels.

Zoe: Absolutely not, and I think when you’re starting out, and you’re taking bits of work that aren’t that common, you know, that you need to do that for particularly, but you know, build your portfolio, absolutely, but I even advised someone exactly that last week, when they were sort of saying, oh we’ve done events, you know, but we don’t really want to do that, we want to do more commercial photography with a family focus, and it was like, that’s fine for now, because you’re fairly new, you know, use what you have, but of course, as you get to the point where you’ve got a wider portfolio, and you can be a bit more, you can curate it more to the direction that you want to present to the outer world, then that’s obviously a great place to be.

Sam: Cool, and I think unfortunately Marcus, we’re coming towards the end of the show, aren’t we?

Marcus:  We are indeed.

Sam: We could be here for another hour, but we will have to finish.

Zoe: Well thank you so much for having me on, I’ve really enjoyed our chat.

Sam: Yeah, it’s been amazing to have you on. From Zoe, if you’re not signed up to the newsletter, the question is why not, and you just need to go to, sign up there, and you get every week, the podcast lands in your inbox, so then you won’t miss it. That is the most important thing, I think, Marcus, isn’t it? Get extra bits of stuff from me and Marcus, and so on, and also on the website, you can actually apply to be a guest as well, all sorts of exciting things there. Zoe, it has been amazing, thank you so much for being with us, and it feels nice from my point of view that lots of the things I keep saying, somebody else is saying at the same time, so that’s amazing, that makes me feel very good, and Marcus, I will see you next week.

Marcus: See you next week, thank you, Zoe, thank you very much.

Zoe: Thank you both for having me, cheers.