“Show Notes”
Martyn is a sales trainer; he is a non-pushy sales trainer. Everything he helps with is non-pushy selling. It’s all about helping, the opposite of the cheesy 1980s pushy salesman. Marcus asks what social selling means. This is around social media. If your customer is on a platform it makes sense to be on that platform and interact with them there. Martyn says his target market is LinkedIn so he is on there at least once a day. He says social media allows us to share what we do without being “shouty”. Marytn was either making a video a day or a blog a day to keep getting content out there.
Sam asks about moving people from social to being more firm leads and how to do that. Martyn says he is waiting for them to direct themselves to him, or refer people to him. Martyn says being in sales and not performing is a very difficult place to be as there is lots of pressure from home and work.
Martyn says he found Daniel Disney was a game changer for him in terms of the way he approached social selling. Martyn recommends this book as a good place to start: The Ultimate Linkedin Sales Guide and the Ultimate Guide to Linkedin Messaging.
Marcus asks what makes a good salesman. He says the best salespeople are slightly introverted and great listeners. We have a past show about being a good listener
A desire to help and curiosity. Curiosity is really important. Great listening means great questions. If you are having problems in sales, questions can help you. What questions could you have asked to get a better result on a sales call?
These could be bold or challenging questions. This still isn’t pushing, it’s showing you are trying to help. Asking questions can mean you offer a solution to their problem that they hadn’t thought of. Martyn says you are trying to be an advisor, not a salesman looking for a close.
Sam asks after this gently, gently approach do you need to then apply a little pressure for a decision. Martyn says there are three things around this.
1. People need to prepare better
2. They need to ask better questions
3. You need to agree on mutual actions during your current discussion.
So this final part says you have pre-determined what you will both do after the call.
So this isn’t a hard close but it’s about asking if they want help with their problem. He also suggests sending the quote with a title that will get their attention. Maybe linked to something that they are trying to achieve. Also in your call make sure you book the next time you are going to speak, so you never lose track of the
conversation.
You can find Martyn
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“Show Transcription”
Marcus: Well, hello, listeners, I hope you’re all well. And Sam, how are you?
Sam: Really good, thank you, Marcus. Yes, very good, and looking forward to the show.
Marcus: Yeah, and we’ve got a great guest on today. He’s a good friend of mine, and we’re going to be talking about sales, but sales in a very unique way. Let me introduce to you Martyn Sloman.
Martyn: Thanks, Marcus, and good to be here with you as well, Sam. Thank you for having me on the show. I’m really looking forward to it. We are talking about sales. So I’m a sales trainer. That’s how Marcus and I know each other. We’ve bumped into each other in networking events and also other events. And he’s seen me speak. And my nickname is that I’m the non-pushy sales trainer. So what Marcus was hinting at there when he says sales from a unique perspective is that all of the training messages that I help sales people and sales teams with and business people and individuals is really about non-pushy selling. So it’s about approaching it from the perspective of helping. And it’s the opposite of the 1980s cheesy hard closing that everyone hates. And rightly so. And sales does have a bit of a bad reputation because of that kind of stigma. But I think those people are now starting to retire. So maybe there is some hope.
Sam: Yeah, absolutely.
Martyn: And I think also people these days are so much more aware. Social selling has come out. And so people have got so much more information at their fingertips. They can research. They can look into things themselves. They know they’ve got a choice. And so they don’t have to take a salesperson’s word for it anymore. They can look around. And of course, whenever we part with any of our hard-earned cash, we tend to look at reviews and things like that to double check. So yeah, the days of just trusting a salesperson’s word, I think, are gone. As a salesperson or as someone who’s selling their services, you have to earn that trust. And you have to kind of establish your credibility in order to do that.
Sam: And I think I find a lot of business owners have this duality where they don’t like to be sold to and they don’t like to part with their cash, but they love to sell because then you get the money. And there’s that kind of duality, isn’t it, from both sides?
Marcus: That’s right. Martin, just if I can just ask, you mentioned social selling there. What does that mean?
Martyn: Well, selling hasn’t really changed much over the centuries. The biggest change that we’ve kind of faced in sales really is social selling, which is really about social media. So depending on your market and your profession, you might hang out on particular social platforms. It could be Instagram. It could be Facebook. It could be LinkedIn. It could be any platform. And that’s where people sort of choose to get their information. That’s where people come to hang out. They socialize. They tend to kind of interact with each other. And so if your prospects, if your customer base is on a particular platform, it really makes sense to be on that platform and to share content there and to interact with them and communicate with them that way. So for instance, someone like myself, my main platform really would be LinkedIn. That’s where my kind of target market are. And so it makes a lot of sense for me to use that platform to communicate. So as a bare minimum, I would be looking at it on a daily basis just to make sure that I’m looking at messages and not missing anything in terms of opportunities.
Sam: So I mean, you’re then really stretching into that, into the whole marketing sphere then. You’re not saying, oh, the marketers are doing this. I’m coming along and I’m kind of making the clothes. You’re effectively going, it’s all just one, blending it into one and going, this is all one.
Martyn: Yeah, absolutely. It’s, I guess what the social platforms have allowed us to do is it’s allowed us to kind of share what we do without it being shouty. So we can share some content, we can write blogs. I went through a big process a while back where I wrote something like 150, 500 word blogs every day in the evening. Churned them all out, yes.
And before you know it, you’ve got probably 13 chapters worth of stuff that sat there in terms of 10,000 words. And similarly with short sales tip videos, I think I did some over 200 two to three minute short sales tip videos, which I’ll put out every single day at lunchtime, one o’clock. I called it one thing at one and it was just a helpful sales tip. Only 90 seconds, two minutes, three minutes max. So that if it wasn’t helpful for that person, and it wasn’t, you know, wasting their time. And so it allows you to do that. And it just means that, you know, you’re kind of top of someone’s mind without actually being in their face. And it’s being done from a healthy perspective, which I like.
Sam: So I was, yeah, and I was kind of going to ask, so what’s your thought about moving people? Because you get people in social, you get them following you. What’s your thought about getting them then further down the funnel, further towards the sale? Or are you saying you’re keeping them there and you’re just keeping them in your mind so when they think they need you, you’re the first person they think?
Martyn: Yes. So I think I’m probably looking at it from a referral point of view, but also for me to be on their radar. So they can either, they would either want to engage with me directly and say, oh, Martyn, we’ve been watching that stuff. Actually, that makes sense. You know, maybe you could come and talk to us about that. That’s something you could help us with. Or, hey, Martyn, I knew this other business and they have been struggling with conversion on this, you know, and I was thinking of you because those videos reminded me. So it’s that thing I would say, that direction.
Sam: Okay, so them directing themselves, you just putting out the content and waiting for them to follow that up.
Martyn: Now, the other piece as well is that I want, I feel for struggling salespeople. So I don’t mind if they take the content and they’re never going to, you know, work with me directly. I don’t mind that because I’ve just put that content out there. And I think there’s nothing worse. There’s nothing more miserable than if you’re in sales and you’re underperforming because you’ve got the weight of your world on you. I’ve seen people carrying so much burden with that. You know, they’re putting enough pressure on themselves. They probably feel like they’ve got pressure from their bosses and then they’ve got pressure at home as well because, you know, the partner’s putting on pressure and we’re going, so where’s this bonus you were talking about? How long since we had this? And it’s, you know, that’s just miserable. You can’t function like that. So if they, if they’re taking a little sales tip, which will lift them and they can just do something to elevate their performance and that makes a difference and that sets them somewhere on the road to improvement. That’s a good thing.
Sam: Okay, amazing. And then you were talking about that social selling in the platform and I think certainly for photographers, that’s important, getting that right platform, isn’t it? A lot of them, I find a lot of photographers instantly go, because photographs look great on Instagram and you go great. Yeah, but are your audience there or are you just sharing it with other photographers?
Martyn: You’re very true. Yes, yeah. If you’re, if you’re, if your target market’s not there, then it’s falling on deaf ears, isn’t it?
Marcus: So yeah, we’ve talked in the past on the show about finding a target market. I mean, our list is nearly all commercial photographers in the same way as me. We, and we always talk about LinkedIn and I think most of our listeners, hopefully you’re all out there, you’re all on, you’re on LinkedIn and you’re using it and maybe Facebook, on our Facebook platform, we’d like to see you on there as well.
Sam: Yeah, and so, and so Martyn, are you just saying kind of the amount of content you talk in there was pretty big. So you talking, that’s the key, being there, not just managed a couple of posts a week and a bit, not much, but really going, right, I’m going for this. I’m going to put it out every day. I’m going to be there. I’m going to put the effort in. And that’s, that’s the way to go.
Martyn: Well, that I’ve got, I’ve had a mixed experience there. So one of the, one of the, one of the, I guess one of the reasons why I get hired is because I’ve made tons of mistakes. So I’ve made all kinds of mistakes and so I know how to do the opposite. So with regards to this social selling thing, I’ve wrestled with it. I’ve had a love hate relationship with LinkedIn. I’ve paid for a coach, right? You know, I’ve put, I, the LinkedIn coach helped me to get my profile to look decent and kind of talk to the audience, which is great because you’ve got one of three types of profiles on LinkedIn. You’ve got the token profile, which is just nothing. Like, oh, I’ve been told to have a LinkedIn account. Then you’ve got CV, which is where everyone lists all their experience, which is a common thing, which is great if you’re looking for a job, but not otherwise. But ideally what you want is you want your LinkedIn profile to talk directly to your, to your customer or to your target market. So that was good because that helped me to do that. But beyond that, the biggest, biggest kind of penny drop for me was when I came across Daniel Disney’s content on LinkedIn, who is just phenomenal. So for me, he’s the only person who, for me, joins up the, you know, that gap between having a LinkedIn profile and then actually making it into some kind of effective sales machine for you. So he’s really, really worth checking out. Your, your, your audience are really, you know, you would do really well just to, to follow him. It is a plug for him, but I think the guy’s great. So I honestly don’t mind. And he’s, he’s.
Sam: Yes, I’ve got LinkedIn show notes for that.
Marcus: Yeah, I’ve, I’ve got his book. He’s got several books out and it’s a little bit confusing about which book to go for. Which one would you recommend, Martyn? Which one do you think?
Martyn: The, there’s probably two. I would say the ultimate LinkedIn sales guide and then also the ultimate guide to LinkedIn messaging. And the reason that I recommend the two is that one will help you to build your profile effectively and he’ll, he’ll have a recipe you can follow. So it’s, it’s, it’s something you can do. You know, it’s not a huge mental effort. Yes, of course it is to try and get the words out. However, he, there’s a, there’s a recipe to follow, which is great. The second book is the messaging book. And the great thing about that is there’s, there’s 50 templates in there. They’re short form templates. So the opposite of the kind of LinkedIn copy and paste long form messages that everyone hates and wants to delete and immediately disconnect from someone. So he’s refined those and you can just, you can just lift them. You can just then adapt in your own words and it’s quick. So it’s, you can do it amongst all the other, you know, millions of tasks that you’re balancing in your, in your business. So those are the, those are the, my two best bits of advice on that, I would say.
Marcus: Excellent. Yeah, that’s a good one. Martyn, this is a broad question I know, but what makes a good salesman?
Martyn: That’s a really good one. So in the old days, they would say that you can talk for England, but that’s actually the opposite. The opposite is true. The best salespeople are actually slightly more introverted. So if you are an…
Sam: So more than a listener.
Martyn: A hundred percent.
Marcus: Well, that’s exactly what I thought you might say, yeah. Yeah. Listening, it’s listening, isn’t it?
Martyn: Surely these, and just a quick plug there.
Marcus: We do have a great show about listening.
Sam: Oh yeah, with the listening coach.
Marcus: Yeah, the listening coach. Yeah, he, that was an, he was really gave some great advice about being a good listener.
Martyn: Oh, that’s fantastic.
Marcus: Yeah. Sorry, Martin, I did interrupt there, which is not very good. So what were you saying?
Martyn: I’m always looking for tips. So that’s fantastic. I will definitely, I’ll definitely check that out. Yeah, the two things really are, one is, is sort of generous listening and just being fascinated.
Marcus: Oh, that’s nice. Generous listening. I like that.
Martyn: Generous listening, definitely. And it’s, it’s, it, what it does is it kind of encompasses this behaviour in terms of a sincere desire to help. So you’ve got this generous listening, this ethos of a sincere desire to help, and you’ve got massive curiosity. And the curiosity is really, really important. We have to kind of pretend almost it’s like it’s our first day on the job. And it’s the first time we’re talking to someone before this kind of thing with this kind of issue. And this is how we need to help because our experience can work for and against us. So when we’ve been around the block a bit, we kind of go, oh, right. So it’s that, and it’s that, right.
Sam: Okay, so we make assumptions.
Martyn: And assumptions are just a killer. So, whereas what we should do is we should say, okay, well, I think I know what it is and I could be right, but I don’t know. And also, I need to actually find out what’s unique about this and about them. And if you can find the thing that’s unique about them, then you’ve got people understanding, which is great.
Sam: Yeah, so in some ways, is booking that call to speak to somebody a really important step in this sales process? Because if they just email you, go, I want a photo shoot. You’ve got nothing.
Martyn: Yes, yeah. So to kind of just go back to all of that, Marcus, around the listening, the thing that goes hand in hand with that is great questioning. Because if you’re asking great questions, you must be actively listening. You must be applying generous listening. So questions are always the answers. And for anyone who is experiencing a bit of frustration with what’s going on in their business at the moment and thinking, ah, how can I make this better? What can I do to get better conversations going? How can I not miss these opportunities? How can I kind of create more out of this? Questions are always the answers. So if you kind of think about that, all right, I would have liked that to have gone better. Okay, questions are always the answers. What was the question I could have asked that would have found that out? Now, there’s a saying that the salesperson’s job is to find out the truth. You could say, well, okay, anyone who works for themselves is a salesperson, whether they want to come to terms with it or not. We have to find out the truth. And sometimes it’s asking a little bit more of a bold or a challenging question. And that’s okay.
We can do that. We’re not being pushy by doing that because once we’ve built the rapport and once we’ve kind of rolled out that red carpet to them that, hey, listen, I want to understand you. I don’t know if I can actually help you. I might not be the best person, but let me see. If you’ve got that sort of behaviour, they’ll trust you more quickly and they won’t take offence if you ask more of a kind of a bit of a bolder question later on.
Sam: That makes sense. So I don’t know if you can think of an example in photography, Marcus, but some, for example, people come to me and a lot of people come to me and say, and I want some SEO. And then when I actually speak to them, yeah, for some of the people, it’s yes. But for actually most of the people, my answer is, no, you don’t. That’s the last thing you need. But it only comes from talking to them rather than me going, oh, let me get my SEO packages out. And do you get a similar thing, Marcus, where someone will turn up and go, I want a headshot and you actually go, no, you really need some branding. A headshot’s not right for you or that type of thing.
Marcus: Well, what I was thinking there, Sam, when Martyn was talking, was that photographers by nature, from what you’re saying, they’re very good at questioning. That’s just what we do. We question what’s around us. You know, we’re pointing our camera and we’re asking, you know, what is this all about? And at the same time, myself being a portrait photographer, I spend a lot of time listening. And just to find out what people are about and what they want. So maybe photographers are natural salespeople.
Sam: And if we’re generalising, they often are a little bit introverted as well, aren’t they? They’re hiding behind the camera and what you’re saying, Martin, is actually, in this case, that’s a positive asset.
Martyn: I think it is. I think it is. Yeah, it’s interesting what you’re talking about there. I think it’s like you’re describing the brief there. You know, so for Sam, you know, it’s around the SEO or for Marcus, they’re saying, hey, I need a headshot. And the most important thing really always is to clarify the brief. You’ve got to start from the same starting point. So you just go, absolutely. You know, I certainly would like to see if I can give you some information on that. You know, let’s see where this goes. Just out of curiosity, you know, what is it that you actually need the headshot for? What is it you’re trying to achieve? And that can then, by going behind it, we can then uncover what their actual goal is. And it may well be that, okay, yeah, the right course of action is to do this. You know, whatever they’ve decided.
Or it could be, okay, that’s interesting. So, you know, in my experience, I’ve seen this happen. And so in that case, one of the things you could consider is, you know, I can still give the information on the headshot or on the SEO. However, it might be worth bearing this in mind. And I think that’s the other piece as well of the kind of modern day salesperson or the modern day approach to sales is that you’re trying to do it as an advisor. So you’re not doing it from the thing of, okay, what can I close here? It’s, okay, why does this person want this? Why are they asking for that? Is that the best thing? And have I got some other knowledge that might be helpful for them to at least consider? I can’t tell them what to do.
It’s their choice ultimately. But would it be wrong of me to just go down that route purely because that’s what’s gonna create an invoice?
Sam: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And then, but further down the line, so I’m thinking you’re saying this is kind of the non-pushy approach, but eventually you’ve had these conversations. You’ve worked out what you think is really right for them. You’ve offered it to them, but then they’re just not getting back to you. Presumably at then stage, you do need to, you know, cause if you just leave it, they will just leave it. And it could be right for them and they could be your customer and just leaving it. It’s not right at that point. So what’s your thoughts at that point?
Martyn: So there are three things that spin around all of this. The great thing is it’s three things. So it’s easy to remember. And it actually falls into the banner of the biggest mistakes that sort of sales people make. And you could say the biggest mistakes that business people make when they’re trying to generate business. One is that they need to prepare better.
The second one is that they need to ask better questions. We’ve been talking a little bit about the questions. And the third one is that they need to establish mutual next actions whilst in the current interaction.
Marcus: Wow. Okay. That’s huge.
Sam: You don’t just say, I’m going to send you a quote. You also discuss what they’re going to do.
Martyn: And that’s the important bit. So one of the questions you might ask there, because again, questions are always the answer. It’s okay, I’ll put this quote together for you. And what do you want them to do with the quote? You don’t want to just gather dust in their inbox or it can get ignored or deleted. You want to have some attention on it. So you want them to review it. So the first goal is you get the thing opened. And so part of what you might consider there is, okay, what do I call the email? So for me, if I’m talking to a business and they’re looking to achieve some growth, they might go, yeah, well, I’ll probably spend over the next five years to go from five to 12 to 50 million growth. Guess what I’m going to call the proposal from five to 12 to 50 million. Then it’s in their inbox lit up like a sparkler.
Sam: And you’re not just going.
Martyn: Yes, exactly. Yeah. Or proposal, you know, a quote or which, you know, if they’re looking at a couple of other providers, guess what they’re calling this? They will call it something pretty nondescript. So you’ve got to differentiate with literally anything you do. It’s an indicator of your service level. So yes, so how do we, you were just talking, Sam, with your question there about how do we kind of make something happen here? So part of it also, it comes down to belief. So in other words, if you’re making a recommendation to them, you have to believe that because you’ve gone through that process, they’ve qualified you and you’ve qualified them. And that’s okay. Well, yeah, Marcus is decent. Yeah, okay. I trust him. It sounds good. Yeah, fantastic. He’s got some excellent testimonials. Okay, that all makes sense. Martyn, despite being follicly challenged, he’s got a good reputation as a sales trainer. And so, but we have to help people make a decision. So often when we ask someone to make a decision, their immediate knee-jerk reaction is to procrastinate because that’s not what we want to do. We go, oh, I’ve got to make a decision. Oh, hang on a sec.
I probably, that’s it. And in actual fact, if we’ve taken them through that journey and you just think, do you know what? I know we can get this done for you. I know we can achieve even more. I think that point is when you then start to get more animated and go, do you know what? I really think I can help you here. Would you like my help with this? So it’s not a hard close. It’s, you know, you refer back to the initial goal that they had. He said this, he wanted to do these things, you know, looking at the, by putting these things in place, I’m convinced we can do that for you. So would you like my help with that? So that’s the kind of ultimate way to get a nice, you know, to help someone to.
Sam: So you’re kind of following them up going, look, we can achieve this with you, you know, if we make a move on this.
Martyn: And going back to the quote, the quote piece there, the whole piece around having, agreeing next actions, mutual next actions, whilst in the current moment, you need to make sure that there’s something for them to do as well as you. So you’ll say, okay, I’ll put this for you. In order for me to help you, for me to do that, could you help me with that, please? Could you get me this? So you want to sometimes even just create something that they have to do.
Sam: Yeah, you’re just mating them, yeah, just so there’s something there.
Martyn: So if they’ll commit to it, they’ll go, oh, yeah, okay, I can do that. In which case then there’s some skin in the game there. There’s, you know, they’re committed in some way and just say, okay, that’s great. Thank you, I appreciate that. And I’ll be able to put that together for you. When will you be able to review it? Great, when should we next speak? So that’s our next question. So, and that will tell you everything because if they go, oh, well, yes, you know, I’m keen to kind of get this going, blah, blah, blah, blah, you know, then there’s positive signals. And so you can line up a time and a date and it’s not pushy to say, okay, have you got your calendar there? Should we just drop that in? Because, you know, we’re all so busy. If I don’t do it now, I know I’m going to forget. So, you know, pop that in the calendar and then we go, you know, off we go. Or if they go, if you say, when should we next speak? Oh, right, yeah, well, I don’t know. Can you leave it with me a couple of weeks? Because blah, blah, blah, then you think, okay, well, perhaps the buy-in isn’t quite there, you know, and it’s okay to question that and just say, oh, absolutely, of course, I don’t want to pursue you. I’ll follow up when you want me to. But just out of curiosity, that’s a little bit of a time away. Do you mind, you know, is this something that you, you know, you definitely want to do? Or is this something perhaps, you know, you might have some concerns about that I could answer or, you know, let me know? I think it’s good to sort of invite that so that you can deal with that if they have got a concern or two.
Marcus: That’s brilliant. I think, Martin, you’ve really, you’ve got some great ideas for our listeners and I’m just looking forward now to start with sell, sell, sell. Let’s just, just to recap then, I think we’ve talked about mainly three things here. I think the first one is to come from a place of abundance. Secondly, to listen. We talked about that. And thirdly, that last thing you’ve been talking about is to make sure that you close the deal, not in a sales way, but by making, see if you can help them or to try and make sure that they’ve got an action to do as well.
Martyn: Exactly.
Sam: Yeah. And I just had a quick question. I mean, what are your thoughts on, I mean, there’s a lot of traditional approach of really putting pressure on people for time and stuff.
What are your thoughts about just little things like that going, you know, and here’s what we can do for actually, I’ve got a bit of free time. So if you, you know, if you book this in before the end of the week, I’ll just throw that in as well for you. That type of thing.
Martyn: If it’s genuine, why not? Yeah. If it’s a genuine piece.
Sam: So it’s that trying to make it a genuine offer rather than just an extra push and you’re not doing it.
Martyn: Yeah. Rather than it being a scarcity thing, a fear of money, you know, then it feels more like a bit of a ploy. But if you just, you know, if you can back that up in with some sort of, some sort of genuine story and just say, look, between this time and that time, I’m not going to get anything booked then. So I’ll happily do that for you. You know, that’s a genuine offer, I think.
Marcus: Brilliant.
Sam: Cool. That has, we have learned huge amounts here. There is, I think it, I’m imagining this being on tape going backwards and forwards and people wearing out the tape. I think people will be doing that on a few bits here. Really, there’s some real nuggets in there that yeah, is really going to help people with their business. Thanks so much, Martyn.
Martyn: You’re very welcome. I’ve really enjoyed it. Thank you.
Marcus: Thank you, Martyn.
Sam: Reviews. What we would really love is more reviews. If you’re listening, I say watching, if you’re listening on Spotify, if you’re listening on Apple, wherever you are listening, please, please leave us some five-star reviews. That really helps us. It makes, it makes Marcus smile and me and it also helps other photographers. The more reviews we have, the more photographers can find us, the more people we can help, the more people can listen to Marcus, Marcus, Martyn and all our help. So yeah, reviews really help us and the photography community. Martyn, thanks so much again. And Marcus, I’ll see you next week. Thank you very much.
Marcus: Thank you, Martyn. And see you next week.
Martyn: You’re welcome. It’s a pleasure.
