“Show Notes”
Jo wants to help people who don’t want an average vision. She asks them if the level of effort they are putting in reflects in their bank balance, but for most people that is not the case. Jo finds that most people don’t know how to sell or land business. Once she helps them with that they can afford her and move everything else forward. One of the things Jo shows people is that it doesn’t matter what you do, it’s how you present yourself that is important. And once they do that the work follows. Jo says she helps people present themselves in the best possible way. But there is a problem. People can see her, and in many ways photography, as a luxury. So a photographer needs to show a potential customer what they are going to gain from the photography, and what losses will be avoided.
Marcus explains what she is saying follows a Japanese philosophy he follows Ikigai. It has four tenants. Jo has mentioned two of them. Getting paid for what you do and adding value.
Jo says if you don’t believe in yourself you are never going to get work. She also says the prices needed to reflect your value. And if you are very good at what you do, charge accordingly. The conversation then moved onto mindset and Jo says the key is that it is simple. But that doesn’t mean it is easy. The first step is self awareness. Be able to see the doubts and negativity in your mind. That awareness then flows onto to the changes being possible. They discuss the Jeff Olson book The Slight Edge that talks about this gradual change. In Marcus Galdwells Outliers he says you have to put 10,000 hours into something to become an expert. Jo says it is a journey and you need to enjoy that journey. Ask what a confident person would do and how would they behave. Jo says awareness and little and often changes are really key. That self awareness and confidence is vital to the process of photography. Jo says it’s important that this inner confidence is important. And that the work on improving ourselves is vital every day. Not many people like their photograph being taken and so that confidence and calmness is essential.
Jo likens your self confidence to being on a perch. If you have self belief and self confidence then day to day issues won’t knock you off your perch. But if your confidence is not in place, you can easily be knocked off your perch. Marcus brings up the idea of melancholia and getting creativity from the darker times. Jo says that everyone will go though these times but what’s vital is that when
you go through this you are aware what is happening and being aware that “this too shall pass”. Working through it is more possible with strength and resilience.
Other book recommendations
Beyond positive thinking, Dr Robert Anthony
As a final thought Marcus brings up sods law, which he thinks he is effected by. Jo says here partly this is about letting go and saying what am I doing this day to make this day count.
“Show Transcription”
Marcus: Well, hello everybody, uh and welcome to another episode of shoot to the top Sam, how are you?
Sam: Very good Marcus. Yes. Excellent back in the UK So slightly chilly, but apart from that i’m in a very nice podcast studio today, which is lovely.
Marcus: It looks amazing Sam I’m quite envious of all that phone planning background there.
Sam: It’s very exciting.
Marcus: Okay. Yeah, so we’ve got a guest uh this week, uh, sam We’ve got uh, joe duffy a mindset coach and so i’m going to hand you straight over so joe can tell us a little bit more about herself.
Jo: Oh, thank you. Hi sam. Hi marcus. It’s lovely to be here. So yes a little bit about me My business is live your vision So in a nutshell I help individuals who are kind of tired of average living, you know They want to achieve something more than what they’re currently experiencing But too many people are not taking the right action at the right time. And so a question I love to ask people is does your level of effort get reflected in your bank balance? And unfortunately for most of those people, the answer is no So that’s what I do is help people create a business. They love which gives them a lifestyle and they live life on their terms.
Marcus: Oh, it’s fantastic. And so is there any particular clients or type of clients that you work with?
Jo: No, there’s no particular industry or business or size for me It’s just about that individual who is saying i’m ready for the next level and I just don’t know how to get there um Most people are stopping themselves because they genuinely don’t know how to Land business without selling so they Go back from having conversations and so I show people how to do that once they’re landing business Which pays for me and gives them profit? Then we’re in a position to take their business and their life to the level they want Right.
Sam: That’s really interesting It’s kind of kind of a bit of a business coach a bit of a sales coach and a bit of a lifestyle coach kind of All mixed into one to help people go in the way they want to but you’re kind of giving them the skills to do It on the way as well.
Jo: I think so For me my specialty is in people, you know, I look at people you can’t have a great life And business be struggling because whatever’s struggling pulls the other thing down So it’s about getting that balance and moving everything up at the same time.
Sam: Okay, that’s really interesting and then and I guess actually sales is about people as well, isn’t it? You know, unless you’re selling, you know endless widgets on amazon for 10p then it’s a bit different. But yeah, isn’t it, you know for most especially photographers That sales is about people, isn’t it and those conversations?
Jo: Well, this is it, you know one this is one of the things I show people whether you’re in photography Or websites or you’re a va or you’re a coach. It doesn’t matter actually what you do. It’s about how you present yourself to people so that you can then have those meaningful conversations. I think that’s the problem. A lot of people Are presenting themselves incorrectly So then it’s difficult to land business. It’s difficult to make a successful business And as I said a moment ago, it doesn’t matter the type of business you’re in.
Marcus: Yeah, that’s interesting. Are you saying they hide but let’s talk about photographers. They hide themselves behind the work.
Jo: Well Kind of i’m not saying they do or they don’t I think what it is people When it comes to photography when it comes to what I do Like I help people present themselves so they come across in the best possible way Isn’t that what a photographer does? You know a photographer helps people present themselves so that they and how they show up in the world how they come across the people the problem is I don’t know if it’s all photographers, but people see that what we do As a luxury Well, actually, I don’t see it as that. I see it as a necessity. So people may know they need to spend money on photography, but they see it as a luxury and not a necessity. So they’re not appreciating that it reflects their personality and that they have to come across so. For the photographer themselves, it depends on how they’re having that conversation because they need to show the person they’re speaking to that the person is going to get value for money, that they’re dealing with honesty, and they need to talk about the losses to be avoided and the benefits to be gained. I liken it a little bit to car insurance. I mean, who wants to pay for car insurance? My son is just learning to drive, and the quote so far when he passes is 2,300 pounds, which is just horrendous. But what are the losses that will be avoided if I pay for that? And I think that’s the idea of how photographers, whatever business you’re in, present themselves so that people see the benefit of working with you.
Marcus: I mean, you’ve talked about two things there, Joe, that really resonated with me because I’m a great believer in this Japanese philosophy of ikigai, which has only got four tenets to it, and you’ve mentioned two tenets of that already, which is a charging for your work and getting paid for it, and b having value in what you offer. So I think, you know, that’s fantastic what you’re saying there, and you do.
Sam: I mean, I know from networking you get people who turn up. I remember another web designer because I tend to remember them, and you just, you turn up. Yeah, you know, I can help you a bit. I can, you know, I won’t get you on the first page of Google, but maybe bump you a bit. And it’s like, you know, you’re not presenting yourself as giving value. Are you? And then he wondered why he got no work.
Jo: Well, this, you know, it’s a really important thing that you say there. I mean, if you don’t believe in yourself, and that’s how you’re presenting yourself, then clearly no one else is going to buy into you either. But when you talk about value for money, there was a lady I met years ago at networking. She photographed newborn babies, and so she had a very small window. But she said to me, I’m not getting any business. So, you know, questions I’ll ask people to ask themselves: How good are you at what you do? And she told me in no uncertain terms how good she was. And then when it came to the pricing, she said, but you know, I’ve checked out there and I’m kind of average. Well, let me get this right. You are amazing at what you do, but you’re charging average prices. So she didn’t own it. I literally saw her the next time, and she said, you know, someone came in to purchase some photos, and they said, how much do you charge? And she said, I was so nervous I was about to look away. And I remembered you said value yourself. So I did because the client bought every photo, highest paying client in two years just from having that belief and value in themselves.
Sam: To look them in the eyes and say, it’s this much, not flinching and being happy with it yourself.
Jo: Absolutely, yeah, absolutely. Because if you are nervous, that will come across to the other person.
Marcus: Yeah, that’s true. So true. So true. Let’s dig deep. Let’s start talking about mindset, Joe, and how you get to this level where you’re feeling confident about what you offer, and you’re at the top of your game. How do you get there?
Jo: Well, that is, I guess it’s a journey. It’s a process, and it’s not overnight. And I always say to the people that I work with, it’s not difficult. You know, this is really simple, what we do. But simple doesn’t mean easy. So I don’t know if people have heard of Eckhart Tolle, you know, awareness is the greatest agent of change. So if you are not aware of what you’re thinking, and you’re thinking, I’m going networking, for example, and I can’t land clients, oh, no one’s going to pay my prices. Can I make this work? If you’re not aware that you’re thinking that, and what I mean is that you can take a step back and say, actually, that’s not how I want to think. I am good at what I do, and I make a success of the things I do. I’m a fantastic photographer. If you can’t vouch for yourself and you aren’t aware of the negativity, you know, you will follow down that line. I always say where attention goes, energy flows. That’s a phrase that’s bandied around a lot. I know it’s not an overnight process, but that awareness creates determination, courage, and discipline to change the way in which you think, and you can do that.
Sam: Yeah, really interesting. And yeah, I mean, you can say, I mean, for some people, it can be quite subtle, can’t it? Well, for others, you mean, it can be really obvious, can’t you? The moment you meet them, you can just see they have no confidence in what they do, and that doesn’t give you confidence in what they do, does it? Yeah, it’s, it’s, yeah, yeah. Really interesting.
Jo: I mean, absolutely. I mean, there’s a book. I can’t think who it’s by, but it’s, um, “The Slight Edge,” and it’s not massive changes.
Marcus: Yes. I know that book.
Jo: It’s Jeff Olson. That’s the name. It’s what you do every day. It’s a bit like compound interest. So, you know, if you just take some action today and tomorrow, you’re not going to have huge changes in a week. But you carry on making those changes, three months pass, and you’ve moved a hell of a long way.
Marcus: I think that’s a great point, Joe. I think, you know, another great book or author on that is Malcolm Gladwell, and his philosophy of the 10,000 hours, where you have to put 10,000 hours into something before you can reap rewards or call yourself an expert. It’s a long journey.
Jo: It is a long journey. But the beauty of it is enjoying that journey and seeing those changes because, you know, we look at things and say, you know, people say for networking, I’ll be more confident when I’ve landed a client. Okay. Well, surely for someone to want to work with you, you have to be confident. So like we were saying a moment ago, so there’s this dance between, you know, landing clients and being confident. So if you can take action on a daily basis and actually think, you know, what does a confident person look like? How would I walk and talk if I felt genuinely confident in myself? So you can see those small changes which actually fuel you and fire you up to carry on going. If you do nothing, you’re just going to go further and further down.
Sam: Yeah, so I mean, for those people who aren’t working with you, what kind of first steps can people take? Is the first step actually kind of realization of what’s going on? Or is there something different as kind of a first step towards, you know, that positive movement?
Jo: Well, I think the first step is that awareness, you know, it wasn’t my client, it was a client of my clients, and they did the same. And so they said to somebody, you know, just put reminders in your phone if it just says thoughts. So you can stop throughout the day and say, you know, what have I been thinking? And the person that he did it with came back and said, I didn’t realize I was my own assassin. I’m annihilating myself on a daily basis by putting myself down. So this is what I mean. It’s that simple, isn’t it, to become aware, but that doesn’t mean it’s easy to change it. So it’s just little and often. The more you do on a daily basis and bring about that awareness, I mean, I know from my own experience, you can change the way you can rewire yourself and change the way in which you naturally think.
Sam: And I think photographers are, on the whole, very aware because kind of if you’re working with clients and stuff, they kind of have to, you know, the good ones, and that’s most of them, isn’t it? I have to be aware of the way they affect the environment. They’re at a wedding. They’re at an event. They’re at whatever. I mean, obviously, maybe if you’re taking pictures of shoes, you’re not going to affect their mood. But, you know, the photographer in the room is affecting everything around them, isn’t it? And so, you know, you really do have to be aware to do the job.
Jo: Yeah, and that’s where you, you know, want the photographer to come into whatever environment, personal or professional, and kind of take charge. You know, I think of brand photography or any kind of photography. People, your clients, will know what they want, but it’s the photographers. It’s their business, it’s what they do for a living. So you expect that photographer to come in and say, I know what you’re looking for, but now I’m going to make it work. You know, they get the lighting right. It’s about making the individual or couple feel relaxed. So yes, the photographer has to take charge, and that comes through a level of self-belief and confidence. Now, when I talk about confidence, I don’t mean someone pretending. Confidence, for me, is just an outer reflection of an inner feeling. So it’s always about working on yourself. I mean, how long have I been doing this? Absolutely years, and I work on myself every day because, you know, I want to improve. I want to feel better about who I am on a daily basis.
Sam: Yeah, and you can spot those people who aren’t confident on the inside, can’t they? They usually come across as far too confident, overconfident, overpushy. And yeah, as a photographer, that wouldn’t work, would it? Because you’re right, they need to come in and take charge but also listen. And there’s a balance there, isn’t it? While they’re sort of over-nervous or overconfident, they won’t be listening. They’ll be going, I’m here, and I’m kind of, yeah, too big and too brash, and you can spot that straight away.
Jo: You can. I think there’s almost a level of elegance about it, but it comes across so strong that your audience, you know, they don’t feel comfortable. You might not know why they don’t feel comfortable, but it’s not genuine, and so the person’s not being congruent. Therefore, there’s an uncomfortable feeling. So, especially in photography, you want your photographer to come, take control, but do it in a way that puts everybody at ease because you have to be relaxed in your photo so that your personality comes across.
Marcus: Yeah. Yeah, I think that’s so true. And back in the olden days of photography, there were photographers who were renowned for having very, um, what’s the word? Not aggressive, but, uh, not pleasing egos. I mean, it was quite well known, you know, that would be acceptable. Oh, they’re an artist, so they’re bound to be like that. We—that just doesn’t work these days at all, does it? No, for obvious reasons, but you just can’t get away with it.
Jo: Well, it’s not going to work. Again, if we just look at the professional side of it, you know, if someone’s coming along to take my photos, then I want my personality to come over, um, and I want it to come across in those pictures. So if I’m on edge or the guy or person is making me feel uncomfortable, my personality won’t come across. So photographers, like what I do, you know, you’re helping people to come across and show up how they want to be, how their true personality shines through. So it’s important that it is a genuine confidence that the photographer has to make the person feel relaxed and at ease. And not many people like their photos being taken, do they? So they need even a little bit more hand-holding, and it’s only through someone putting them at ease that they’ll relax and their personality will come across.
Marcus: Yeah, and you get to that stage by being really comfortable with the equipment, with the environment, with your creativity, knowing what you’re going to be doing and how the shoot’s going to be. You know, so it’s great to hear that you’re really advocating getting that experience there instead of this fake-it-till-you-make-it, which I’m always talking about.
Jo: I know. Well, fake it till you make it—don’t get me wrong. To have an image in your mind of what confidence looks like and feels like to you, you see, there’s not a one-size-fits-all. Confidence is different to different people. But if you are faking that, it’s not—it’s something you have to learn. Growing in confidence and having that inner self-belief is something you have to learn. It’s not something you can fake.
Marcus: Yeah, it’s a process, isn’t it, as you say? And it’s all about mental—I mean, what you said earlier, you know, working on yourself on a daily basis, you know, by reading, by doing exercise, by being open, by doing things like this. Maybe it’s all about building your self-awareness, isn’t it?
Jo: Totally, totally. And I liken it to be when you build that inner self-belief and that confidence, you kind of sit on a perch—not that you’re above anybody else, but you sit there, and it doesn’t really matter what comes your way. You might wobble a bit, but you stay on it. You see, when you don’t have a genuine confidence, someone can say something, something can happen, you’re just knocked off your perch. Whereas if you work on that self-image, self-belief, and confidence on a daily basis, you get inner strength. You learn to care less what other people think. You step out as you, and you are, you know, you’re authentic.
Sa: You’re making me think of, like, Dumbledore kind of sitting at the top of Hogwarts, just like no matter what’s going on, he’s just kind of this serene old man, quite happy.
Marcus: Who’s Dumbledore?
Sam: Oh, Harry Potter, Marcus.
Marcus: God, no wonder I don’t know that. Okay, what? He’s like some kind of benevolent character?
Sam: Yeah, he’s like the headmaster, and he’s this sort of old man, you know, very, very wise old man, but then will suddenly be interested in sweets or something again. Nothing will knock him off his perch.
Marcus: So maybe if I can just play devil’s advocate over here, and I’m all for building up your confidence and working on yourself and reading and becoming a better person. But nevertheless, though we are dealing with creatives, the show is aimed at creative people, photographers. I’m just—this idea of melancholia, which was—I don’t know if you know what melancholia—I’m sure you do. Melancholia is something that we would see these days as being a sadness, almost bordering on a mental illness. Yeah. In the Victorian age, it was something that was regarded as something to be savored and treasured, these darker moments that would put you down your thinking down a different route. You know, Alice in Wonderland going down the hole, etc. And it’s documented by a philosopher called Edward de Bono talking about how important melancholia can be for creativity. In short, what I’m saying—it’s not always about being on the bright side of life, is it?
Jo: Oh, absolutely not. I mean, wouldn’t it be wonderful if we could always be on the bright side of life? But it’s not. It comes back to, you see, when things are going well in someone’s life, how easy is it to be happy, positive, confident? That’s not what I’m talking about. I mean, that’s good. But this is about being resilient and knowing when, you know, the darker days come or the tougher times come, it’s knowing—it’s a process. You know, if something happens, you have to go through it, but you have to appreciate that you’re going through it, and you have to allow yourself to go through it. It’s having probably that higher level of thinking where you can see what’s happening. You know, it’s a process. You know, I’ll be honest with you. The last couple of years, I’ve been going through some personal stuff, and it wasn’t all plain sailing, but it was a level to me that saw that I needed to go through it and allow myself to go through it, knowing that this too shall pass. So no, it’s not always about being upbeat. It’s having that inner strength that you can be resilient and know that you’ll come through it. So yes, I appreciate in the creative world, you know, there are songs that come through heartbreak, things like that. But you don’t always want to be in that place. No, you’ve got to be able to come back through it. So this working on yourself—it’s that vote of confidence for yourself and saying, I know I’ll get through this. Today is just another day, if that makes sense.
Sa: And I guess it’s staying on that perch while you’re going through it, isn’t it, rather than it knocking you off?
Jo: Yeah, absolutely. We’re going to have down days. We’re going to have trying days, difficult days, but I guess it’s that not giving in to those and knowing it will change. You know, life can be going great, and something will happen that will change it, and vice versa.
Marcus: I agree, but it’s also savoring those moments. As you say, the songwriter—that song they’re gonna, you know, write sometimes—they’ve got to be in a frame of mind, and it’s not necessarily being a positive frame of mind. It’s to savor and use those moments.
Jo: Yeah, and they’ve come for a reason because look what the songwriter has produced, you know, and it’s incredible. But I think staying in that place—you can’t because you’re just gonna go lower and lower and lower.
Marcus: You feel like most pop stars who die at 27, you know? All these geniuses when they seem to care for sure. Any books that you can recommend? You’ve already mentioned one. Any more?
Jo: Um, I think one of the books I read a few years ago was called Beyond Positive Thinking by Dr. Robert Anthony. That was a really good book for me personally.
Marcus: I’m just writing that.
Sam: We’ll put them on. Yeah, we’ll put them in the notes. And if you think of any more, just drop me an email, and we can have them.
Jo: Yeah. No, I will do, but I have a few books that I read often rather than lots and lots. Oh, there is one. I bought this for one reason, and it turned out to be completely different, and that is The Courage to Be Disliked. Now I thought it would be one thing, but it’s a dialogue between a monk and a youth, and it was fascinating.
Sam: No, that sounds interesting.
Marcus: Oh, that does sound—it’s like a Buddhist philosophy, they say? A Buddhist monk seemingly, or just a—?
Jo: Yes, it was just the youth asking questions, but it was a huge turning point for me and an insight, especially as a parent, you know, in relationships. Basically, kind of learning to let go and allow others to live, but the way it was put across, I thought, was quite profound, and it had an impact.
Marcus: That’s great. So listen, let’s know that you’re young people out there. Listen to the elders—me.
Sam: I don’t know what he’s gonna say, Marcus, but we’ll see.
Marcus: Okay, maybe just if I can come in with one more thing, Sam.
Sam: I’m sort of taking over a little bit, I apologize, but yeah, just this one.
Marcus: And this is something I was talking to somebody about yesterday, and there’s lots of information about manifestation, the law of attraction, and stuff like that. There’s one law that I never see written about, and that’s Sod’s Law, which I think is the one law that always seems to bloody happen, certainly in my life. It’s such a law. How come? Why is all that about?
Sam: I think that’s your positive mindset not coming through, Marcus.
Marcus: Maybe it is, but in a good way, you know? Things seem to happen when you don’t really want them to, or you at least think about it. I don’t know. So it’s a bit of a funny one, Sod’s Law.
Jo: Well, so it’s not—don’t get me wrong, I’m all for the way in which you think does impact your life. I’m all for positive thinking. As we just spoke about, it’s not always about positive thinking, but also I think as well that there’s a lot about manifestation, and we can think our way of achieving things in life. I think some of it is true. Like I say, the thinking is important, but also it’s also about letting go and surrendering a lot rather than really chasing those goals. And that becomes a noose around your neck on its own.
Sam: Is that also kind of letting both sides go? So not only those—if you’ve got those goals, yes, don’t let them go fully, but you might need to relax them, but also the negative things, letting those go as well, and not letting them grip you so much that you fall off your perch?
Jo: Well, it’s always, what are you doing today to make today count?
Sam: Yeah, I think that is a very good note to kind of draw to a close on. That’s excellent. Thank you so much for being with us, Jo. That’s been really, really interesting. If you’re not on the newsletter list, why not just go to the website shoottothe top.com, click on the button, and pop your name and email, and you’ll get a podcast every week. You get hints and tips from Marcus and I and all sorts of extra bits and pieces. So yeah, do that, become part of the community, and join the Facebook group too. Hey, Marcus?
Marcus: Yeah, no, definitely, Sam. And also, I’d just like to give a quick thank you to a few people who’ve been contacting me these last few couple of weeks to say how much they’ve been enjoying the show. Thank you very much for saying that. I’d love to get that in writing and get people to give us a five-star review because I think we’re worth it.
Sam: Okay. Brilliant. Well, Joe, thank you so, so much for being with us. It’s been a really interesting journey. And Marcus, I’ll see you next week.
Marcus: See you next week. Thank you very much, Joe.
